13 Rules: NBA Random Thoughts Overtime - 1984 NBA Finals!

13 Rules_ 1984 Finals === Jose: [00:00:00] All right, it's time to talk basketball. I'm Jose Salviati, editor at TheBeachBasket. net. He's Steve Purciello, longtime educator, vice principal, high school coach, and athletic director. And this is the 13 Rules Random NBA Thoughts Overtime Podcast. Now, during the NBA offseason, Steve and I have had a great time, honestly, discussing stars from the 60s and 70s. by talking about them with someone who watched them play. That being Steve. Today, we've discussed some of the greatest players in NBA history. Will Chamberlain, Sam Jones, Rick Barry, pistol, Pete Maravich, Jerry West. The list goes on and on. We've also been fortunate enough to interview current NBA referee Scott Foster. And NBA champion, Kevin Grevy. It's been a great NBA off season. As the NBA off season winds down, we're going to do something a little bit different and a special thank you to Chris, a listener of the show. We're grateful for this suggestion. He thought it'd be cool. If we discuss not players from [00:01:00] the past, but games from the past, rivalries from the past. So we're going to discuss today, arguably the greatest rivalry in sports history. In fact, this is, we're going to discuss the greatest decade of the greatest rivalry in sports history, and that is the 1980s battle between the two winningest franchises in NBA history, the Los Angeles Lakers. And the Boston Celtics and you can tell if you're watching Steve is a Boston guy. He's got his hat. I'm in LA I don't show it off too much But there's my hat just to even things out. I'm not gonna wear it the whole time Steve: I always thought that the 60s were the best years for the Boston Celtic Laker rivalry Because the Celtics won Yeah, Jose: I got you. The eighties Jose: were when the Lakers punched back a couple of times. We'll get to it. We'll get to it. They slapped back. They didn't push. And you can see what you're in for. Listener, you can see [00:02:00] what you are in for. It's going to be fun. So again, yeah, thank you to Chris. We're excited to talk about it. The eighties represented my start, and the falling in love with the game. And it was because of magic Johnson. It was because of Larry bird. It was because of these games, man, this is when I started to become a really aware basketball fan. So I don't have the memory of it. I think that Steve does, but I certainly remember. Pieces of this and excited to to share my insight, right? Cause to date, we've been talking about games, Steve's seen. I saw some of these nice, all of these too. So I'm excited to talk about them, but first let's do a quick recap of what led up to the 1984 battle between these two great franchises. In 1980, rookie Magic Johnson led the Showtime Lakers to the NBA Finals against Philadelphia 76ers, led by Dr. J. This is great basketball in the 80s. Boston reached the 81 NBA Finals, led by the Big Three of Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish. They met Houston, the Houston Rockets, who were pretty much single [00:03:00] handedly carried by Moses Malone and upset the Lakers and Magic Johnson in the first round. The Celtics won that finals in six games. The Lakers returned to the finals in 82, this time led by new coach Pat Riley. In a rematch against the Sixers defeated the Celtics in the Eastern Conference Finals in a seven game series, but they Lost to the Lakers in game six games in 82. So Lakers, Celtics, Lakers, but they hadn't met yet. 83, the Sixers traded for Moses Malone, who was also the league's reigning MVP. With Malone and Dr. J, the Sixers won the 83 NBA finals in a sweep over the Lakers. So the Sixers kind of ruined the party there in 83. And then in 84, after a four season buildup, waiting for this matchup, NBA fans got what they wanted, the Los Angeles Lakers. Versus the Boston Celtics in the NBA finals. This was the last NBA finals to use the 2, 2, 1, 1, 1 format, which think about [00:04:00] it, right? Two games, two games, and then one game, each place, a lot of travel. So this was the last game that used it. And that will become relevant. I think as we discuss each of these games now, 10 future Hall of Fame players suited up. There were more Hall of Fame coaches, more Hall of Fame referees. This was an unbelievably. amazing time for NBA basketball. But the 10 Hall of Fame players were Larry Bird, Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Cooper, Magic Johnson, Bob McAdoo, Jamal Wilkes and James Worthy. Some of the best basketball you'll ever see. So what Steve and I are going to do is we're going to take The series game by game with a focus on the box score, right? So we can't look at each game and dissect it. We'd be here too long a time. Not that we couldn't do it. We'd probably have a good time doing it, but we're going to, we're going to try and keep this a little bit shorter. So we're going to take a look at the box score and see what comes up, right? What catches our eye about each game? We'll start with game one in. [00:05:00] All right. So before we get there and I'm gonna pull up the boss score here in a minute, Steve, I know you wanted to talk a little bit about the path that each team got took to get there in 1984. What was that like? What do you remember? Steve: The Celtics beat the Bullets in four and it was a three out of five series. Then they played the Knicks and it took seven and that was a great series. They really went at each other pretty hard and the Knicks, ultimately weren't as good, but they really held up pretty well. And then they beat the Bucks in five to get to the finals. And for the Lakers, they, they had, they, they weren't, how can I say they only won 54 games. The Celtics won 62. So they had a tougher path in, in the playoffs than Boston did. They were swept by Philly, as you mentioned. So they, they didn't, their path wasn't nearly, it was more difficult, is what I'm saying, but the other Steve: thing that I just want to point out, and it'll come into play in game five, the games in Boston or in [00:06:00] Boston guard, the old Boston garden, now the, it's a historic place was, it was a historic place. But the. If you actually went into the arena, the history doesn't match the arena. The arena was a dump. No, it plays in game five with the heat with no air conditioning in the building. So there, there were issues with it. The other thing was. Red Auerbach, the tremendous general manager and coach of Boston was known for shutting the heat off and also turning the heat up to do it. Also showers were always cold for the visiting team. For some reason, the water never worked. The locker room space was small for the visiting team. So there were a lot of issues that, that Auerbach was famous for. And that kind of is a prelude because if you know anything about Pat Riley will go to his death hating the Boston Celtics and hating Red Auerbach. And it's because of some of these things that is why [00:07:00] Riley is like that. Jose: No, and I think it's things that I don't think you can get away with today. I just don't think you can, but back then it was open game and listen, man, a tip of the hat, really tip of the Lakers hat to read our back, you do everything you can within the rules. To win the game. And that's what he Steve: did. Yeah. Jose: He did a good job and he did a good job of it. I got nothing but respect for that. Honestly. All right, let's take a look at game one. Now this game was in Boston. Okay. Now keep that in mind. The Lakers did come in. I would imagine as a bit of an underdog, Steve, to your point, the Celtics had a better season. They let's say steamrolled. They got into to the finals where the Lakers had to struggle a little bit to get there. But let's take a look at what happened in game one. Here is the box score for the Los Angeles Lakers. Here's the box score for the Boston Celtics. We're going to dive in just a little bit to see if there's anything that pops out, but here is the score. Lakers took game one, one 15, [00:08:00] one Oh nine. Now game one doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot. Of course, you'd rather win it than lose it, but to get one on the road in the finals, this was huge. This was huge. Now let's take a look at the Lakers box score and I'll give my thoughts. And then we'll go down and take a look at the the Celtics. First thing you notice Kareem had 32 points. You'd expect a big game from the captain 12 to 17 just amazing efficiency, magic, 18 points, 10 board. Pardon me, 10 assists. And then James worthy. Who if I remember right, Jamal was hurt Jamal Wilkes. You'll see hidden down here. So James came in was a surprise starter, but it played really well. And Kurt Rambis was the the lone starter, not in double digits, but that was in his game. And I wasn't talking Rambis Steve: was on the court because he needed five guys. I don't, I never quite figured out what he was doing, but you did need five guys. So they put him out there. Come on. [00:09:00] Jose: Rambus was a good defender. He was a capable defender, a good rebound. You got to give him that. Steve: If you say so. Jose: All right. Like I said, we'll be talking Rambus a little bit later. But obviously great start to the series for the Lakers. You can see that they got some good contribution from Byron Scott off the bench, just overall good numbers. Let's take a look at what Boston did. Look at the number of minutes, right? Steven, I talked about this earlier, 46 minutes for Dennis Johnson, 42 minutes for Larry Bird, 39 minutes for Kevin McHale. Who, according to this didn't start, right? Steve: He didn't when Maxwell was there, he started, don't forget. Maxwell was the MVP in 81 and that series. So he was revered. They lost a lot of use for him in the next year. He had an operation on his knee and he really never really came back and didn't help them in the playoffs. And so [00:10:00] they traded them after the 85 season. For Walton, which was made them one of the greatest teams of all time in 86. But yeah. And the other thing that's interesting about that is you have Gerald Henderson. He'll play a major role. Gerald Henderson was a guard who was really a journeyman guard, but he'll play a major role in game two in that series, the other piece too. And you look at Parrish fouled out, look what he played. So you really get an idea of what Kareem. Was capable of and by the way, Mikhail didn't struggle for minutes. If you look he had 39 minutes. Yeah Steve: What's interesting also for boston and scott wedman who's a tremendous shooter pure shooter Will play a role in this series, but He played 12 minutes. He's he was considered a really good shooter in the thing. This first game was really not eventful. It was scary if you're a Boston fan, because you [00:11:00] realize game one, you're supposed to win if you're home, though they only won by six, they were in control of the game. And it was scary because you thought they were in trouble because the Lakers were just better. And I believe to this moment, the Lakers were better that series. Jose: Wow, I'm going to encapsulate. I'm going to cut that out. I'm going to save it. I'm going to Transcribe it and I'm going to put that on my wall right next to Kobe Bryant. Thank you for that Steve: Put down but the celtics won Jose: Everything to the left side of the pot. I do want to call out here about larry bird 24 points terrible game 14 rebounds Five assists. He had Steve: a great game. He didn't shoot well, if I remember right, and it's saying it's 7 for 17. He really struggled. And something interesting, if you look at it, how many attempts did the Celtics take from three? And it [00:12:00] tells you about the early 80s basketball. Jose: Three. That's right. Good point. And they made one. Let's take a look at what the Lakers did. Two and made one. The game has changed. That's right. But Jose: one thing that hasn't changed. You want game one. Especially if you're playing on the road. The Lakers got it. 115 109. They had to be feeling good. And they got to know. You win game two. All of a sudden you got a stranglehold on this series. And they look like they were going to win game two. Yes. Let's take a look at game two. Cause this is stuff. Honestly, I was a young guy. You just getting into falling in love with the game. I don't remember the details of it. I do, but I can imagine, but look at this, you guys, this is pretty shocking. Let me hide this. Boston won game two, 124 to 121. This game went to overtime. Did it not? It did, right? Yeah. 21. So what a [00:13:00] missed opportunity for the Lakers. Again, we're just going to take a look at the box score. We'll start with the Lakers. Look at the scoring at the top here. Magic with 27, 10, almost a triple double 27, 10 and nine Kareem with 20. Not as efficient, right? So I imagine Boston really wanted to hunker down and stop this guy and they did. 9 22 is super poor shooting overall for anybody. Much less one of the greatest to play the game. 29 for James Worthy who went off. That's probably what they did. Maybe they backed off James the defender and doubled Kareem. I'm just guessing based on the numbers. Coop nine and Kurt Rambis Steve: showed up, he was there, he was Jose: the Steve: fifth Jose: player of the court. Steve: Just a quick thing though. I want to mention Kareem was what about 35 or 36 at that time. True. So yeah, he was beyond, we talk about LeBron, but Kareem held his own for quite a while and he still played another couple more years after this. You've got to get one of the [00:14:00] greatest players ever Jose: undeniable love that shout out. Yeah. I love watching him play. Even as in, even in his later years, when magic would get the ball and we'll go down for a fast break, Kareem would sit back and watch. And then you would always see him come in right, maybe 10 seconds left on the shot clock. He'd take his spot right in the corner. Magic would give him the ball. He'd do his sky hook. It was amazing to watch. Lakers certainly punched. They wanted game two. I want to take a look at the score quarter by quarter. So look, Boston got off to a big start in the first Lakers punch back in the second, even in the third Lakers with a little bit. I, you can't tell a lot about the style. Steve: Let me tell the story though. Please. There was about 18, 20 seconds left. Lakers were up by two. Now, I'm watching this and I'm thinking to myself, Boston's in trouble. They're going to lose. The Lakers had the ball out of bounds under their own basket, and I'm saying Boston's in trouble. If they lose these two, they're going to get swept. And [00:15:00] they're thinking it's over. Now, Boston has the pressure and I believe Worthy threw the ball and Gerald Henderson, that journeyman I talked about before, intercepted it and made the layup. Now it doesn't end there. The Lakers still have the ball, what a chance to win it. They take it out. Timeout. Take it out. And magic forgets. The clock, right? And the game runs into overtime and then we get to overtime. And if I remember Scott Wedman, the guy I was talking about before, who was a great shooter with Cleveland before he came to Boston and Boston had him. And he was always the seventh, eighth guy, ninth guy on this team could always shoot. He hit a jumper. From the baseline. And that was the biggie in overtime that bought the game home for Boston. Now you got to keep in mind, Boston had no right winning this game. And you think about the greatness of magic Johnson, and I'm going to use an analogy. It's like Mariano [00:16:00] Rivera, blowing a save. In a tough situation. Magic didn't do that. And Worthy didn't do that. They screwed up and Boston steals game two. That keeps Boston in the series. Otherwise, they were done. They were done. Now again, Bird, 27, but his assists were way down as always. And he wasn't, doing the whole game yet. But he will. But Jose: yeah. No, no doubt. Looking back at this right again, when I watched this game and I'm sure I watched it, I'm sure I, I was rooting the whole way and I vaguely remember the Henderson steal because there was a throwback to Havlicek stole the ball, right? A famous Johnny most call. Yeah. So I remember that. That, I think Johnny most and folks on the national broadcast for making that correlation back to another great steel by the Celtics. But what really sticks out to me and you called it [00:17:00] out, as we have 10 hall of famers playing the game, right? But the guy who made the big steel kind of a journeyman, the guy who hit the big shot, a journeyman. Those are the guys you need to win these kinds of games. And Boston had that in game two and stole a game from the Los Angeles Lakers. So now it's tied 1 1. They fly to Los Angeles. Let's take a look at what happened in game three. Ugly. It was an ugly game. Game. Oh, so you know who won. Bates done that alone. And look at that. Boy, that doesn't look ugly to me at all. 137 Steve: 104. The thing that stands out, that's a key piece to this. The game was over. Larry Bird called out his team for as being a bunch of sissies. And that will be a turning point in the series. Jose: A hundred percent. Cause when your captain says something like that, and I think we've had other players do the same thing. Your teams are either going to respond or are they're going to just cower in fear and just be the, yeah, that's [00:18:00] the end of the series. The Celtics responded, but let's not take the highlight off of game three. Let's take a look at who did what here. Now Larry Bird starting to bubble, right? You said his first couple games weren't great. 30 points in game three seven rebounds, still a little shy on the assist, two assists, but he didn't get a lot of help. Look at this. The starters, Parrish, nine, Cedric Maxwell, nine, Gerald Henderson, 10, DJ. Is that right? 14 minutes after playing 45 in the, in, in game one, he only had four points, Steve: three fouls. I don't remember, but he probably was played in foul trouble and then they didn't use him much anymore because Quinn Buckner got more run and ML car. Who probably was the, probably the best towel waver in the NBA. At that Jose: point, no greater memory about the, I remember that who, who spoke to cigar that was our back and the towel waving that, that stuff with Laker fans, MLK Steve: in his day, this was near the end of his career. [00:19:00] He was a good player, a real good player. With Boston and Detroit, I believe, but he was a nice player. Carlos Clark was just, he didn't play a lot. And Greg Kite was the lefty reserve center who I remember him couldn't shoot at all. Really limited, very limited. Jose: And the fact that they got this much time, let you know that this was not a good game for the Boston Celtics. Let's take a look at what the Lakers did. In this dominant game. And you can see, yeah, less scoring from the stars, just more scoring from everybody, which is typically what in a game like this, a lot of garbage magic. Look at magic. 21 assists. If I remember right, that was an NBA record at the time. I don't know if it still is. Might still be 21 assists, 14 points, 11 rebounds. That's a heck of a game. Kareem 24, Koop 17. Some good balance. Even Bob Mack can do off the bench. Mike McGee off the bench. Mike McGee was a solid little shooter. [00:20:00] I remember him well for a couple of years here. Swen Nader got some run, Larry Spriggs and Mitch Kupchak. We talked about Mitch Kupchak with Kevin Grievey not too long ago. Who is actually a really good player. He got three minutes in this game. All right. So now the Lakers are up to one. They've got the home court advantage. They know they should be up three zero. Come on, they've got to have that mentality, maybe that mess with them. And then big thing to remember, Larry Bird called out his team as a bunch of sissies. Who does that? How are the bosses self is going to respond, man. Kevin McHale took that to heart. Let's take a look at what happened in game four. The Celtics came back and won one 29, one 25 in LA. And before we get to the box score, Steve: another overtime game, by the way, Jose: only yeah, the second NBA finals, I think with two games in overtime at up to that time, I think, or overall, I don't remember. It doesn't happen [00:21:00] often, but what do you remember about this game? Steve: I remember a couple of things. I remember when McHale clotheslined with. The arm out as rambus went down the lane and almost a fight ensued now You got to really put this in back then in the nba That was normal game right in Steve: today's nba People would have been tossed. Yeah, Steve: McHale would have never, moved on and played and so on. The Lakers weren't great at responding, which was interesting. And it really set a tone where Boston's gonna, they, it's like being in the schoolyard when somebody is better than you, what you need to do is begin to start pushing them and hacking them quietly, because that's the only way you're going to even off. And Boston realized they were in trouble. So now they've done that. Now in that same game, I believe Bird and Jabbar almost went at it. And also I think Cedric Maxwell when worthy was shooting a foul shot gave the choke sign to him. It [00:22:00] was ugly. It was ugly. And there's a part of me as a basketball fan. I didn't like what Boston did. I understood what was happening because it's the only way you can win a game against them. Now, one other thing that's interesting. The Lakers were winning in regulation by five with a minute left and they blew that. Johnson missed two foul shots to down the stretch so that kind of Boston went on to win it in overtime. So that was something else that was there. But the biggest story of this game was the physical Boston taking it to another level. And again, I think the NBA responded not to that game, but to things like that, saying that The better teams got to win and we're not going to allow things like this to go on in the future. And over the years, the NBA has cleaned themselves up to a point where the NBA has cleaned themselves up in a way where that stuff can't go on. You're out, you're thrown out. I thought it was a block and a shot myself, but [00:23:00] I thought he blocked it clean, but good. Jose: Yeah. Steve: You can see he got all ball, Jose: right? Yeah. This is honestly staggering, right? When you look at the picture, if you look at the replay, knowing the game, what the game is today, you're absolutely right. There's no way, not only would McHale have been tossed, I think the retaliation, brabus might've been tossed too. Steve: I got it. I got a quick, interesting thing in 87 or 88, maybe what are 88? I think it would be the Celtics lost to the Pistons in lame beer was beaten up the Celtics a lot. Parish had enough and in game five, he called cocked him the NBA's response. Now think about that in today's game, probably for a gun for a while, he was suspended for one game and Boston lost the series, but the point being, that would be the [00:24:00] reaction. It would have been a lot stronger in today's game, heavy fall in and everything else with Jose: The game has undeniably changed. You can see, but this is the reaction, right? And that's what I think we want to call out game three, your star, your leader calls you a sissy game for, all right, man, I'll show you. I'm not a sissy. And this play happened and it motivated the Celtics. It had to have, look at these numbers, look at the minutes. Dennis Johnson, 50 minutes, 22 points. Larry Bird. 49 minutes. 29. I mean we'll get a re, Steve: we'll get a rebounds for Byrd. Jose: 21 total rebounds. That is unbelievable. He matched, magic's assists, right? And I can't help but think that these two had, they had to know, right? So Larry Bird says, I'll, I'll show you your 21 assist and I'll match it with 21 rebounds. This is unbelievable battle. And the Celtics clearly said, listen, we're going to go six deep, [00:25:00] man. We're going to put our six best players out there. We're going to, we're going to fight you. And we're going to give our guys just a few minutes. You can see the bench did not get a lot of time. Wedman age car and Buckner did not get a lot of minutes. Um, great response by Boston. Cause again, they know they're down three, one. It's not looking good for them. So now the game goes back to Boston and this is, this is where game fives are always interesting, right? Because It doesn't matter what the score is, right? If you're a game five with the series score is game five is a must win game. Obviously you're either you're going up 32 you're going up. What would it be? I can't do the math. No, you're going up. 31 is that right? 42 I don't know. It's an important game. Bottom line. So let's see who responded and how Boston. Boston won 121 103. Steve: Not the story though. The heat, it was about, it was like 97 [00:26:00] degrees in the arena. Don't forget nowhere. Again, what I talked about before about Boston garden, I remember it was a Friday night game and I remember watching it. And guys, I think Boston had oxygen or something on the sideline. Kareem couldn't handle the heat. He was struggling with it. And the Lakers really it almost seemed like toughness versus softness back then where Boston was able to, okay, we're going to play. And the Lakers were so concerned because all you heard, if I remember right, was complaints about the heat. Yeah, Steve: it was hot for both teams, Boston handled it. The crowd was crazy as always, and Boston won, but the story of the game was really the heat. And that was the only game where Boston won fairly easily in that series. And because of the conditions, I think more than anything, I'm very curious now in looking back, how many minutes Kareem actually played? Cause I know he had a rough night. He had a rough moment, the heat. Jose: Let's take a look at it. But I do want to call out, [00:27:00] this is an important point. This is the one game Boston, one handedly, right? The other two games, the other two wins for them were overtime wins that, arguably could have gone either way. Let's take a look at what Kareem did in the heat 19 points, really poor shooting night after a great start. Yes. And not a very great game for the captain James Worthy. Look at magic Steve: from the floor also. Jose: Magic really poor 10 13 assists, five rebounds. Yeah really poor. And he played 39 minutes. Kareem played 35 minutes. So yeah, the Lakers did not respond well to the heat. They didn't respond well to being in Boston. They didn't respond well to the Boston Celtics pressure. The only good game I'm seeing here is from Bob McAdoo, 18 points on seven to 12 shooting. And interestingly, Michael Cooper, two for two from three, which is interesting. Oh, don't forget, the game might Steve: have been out of reach and he, you're going to take that stuff [00:28:00] normally you don't. Jose: And this is where we start to see right the build up of greatness and Larry Bird who started off slow. Look at the game he had in game five. And this is what I was saying before. Game five is an important game. You want to take control of the series here. Larry Bird did that, man. 34 points, 17 rebounds, a couple of dimes. He played based on this box score just incredibly. And he got some help. DJ timed in 22 points in 40 minutes. Look at three guys. minutes. Steve: I was talki you before with Casey Jon there, what he would do w bird particularly, he wou a little bit of time left Sit out and then through the break, he figured that would be a rest between, the break between quarters and then maybe the first minute of the second of the fourth quarter and then throw him back in. And that was a way because he had to have bird on the court. He was so good. And, he had to, so he didn't [00:29:00] sit him that often. And against Jabbar, he had to overuse parish. Because Greg Kite wasn't cutting it and McHale tried to and but that didn't work out either So Parrish was the guy that got an unlimited amount of minutes as did dj who usually guarded magic In that series Jose: and did a good job against magic. Dennis Johnson was a great underrated player. I think maybe not underrated. I think he gets his props, but a phenomenal basketball player. Steve: He said he was the best player he ever played with. Jose: Oh, I don't think I've ever heard that quote. Interesting. Because look at who Larry Bird played with. That's high praise. Okay. Steve: He was very frustrated with Kevin McHale, because he thought Kevin McHale could be so much better than what he was. And I believe when McHale set the Boston all time record for points scored in a game, One week later, Bird had that ridiculous game against [00:30:00] Atlanta to break the record. If you ever get a chance, go on YouTube and look that one up. It is, you see the Atlanta bench falling down laughing at the shots Bird was making in that game. Yeah. Steve: Yeah, but Bird and McHale always had this interesting relationship that, Bird was like, all this talent and he should be better. And McHale was a happy go lucky guy. Jose: Kind of a throwback to Kobe and Shaq. I never made that correlation before, but they had the same struggle. That is interesting. That might be an interesting article or analysis. Bird Steve: lived the game. Bird lived the game. And McHale was just, and Kevin McHale might have been as good a post up player with his moves as anybody who ever played the game. Yeah. And that just drove Bird crazy. Yeah. Jose: Interesting. Yeah, there might be something that to dive into that. That's interesting. Let's take a look now, right? After a solid start, the Los Angeles Lakers had a 1 0 lead, lost in overtime, an [00:31:00] opportunity to go up 2 0. Now Boston takes control of the series. And again, remember this is a one in one, right? So this game in Boston was a win by Boston. You go back to Los Angeles. How do the Lakers respond in LA? Let's take a look. Game six goes to the Lakers 119. 108. Nothing comes to mind about this game. Steve: From my, as a fan, I expected that the one thing that in research, I didn't even remember this, but that it said that Lakers the worthy shove Cedric Maxwell during the game. So there was still, and I guess that was the Lakers or the LA. Strong response to Rambus getting right. I don't know how Steve: strong that is, I think it really shook the Celtics up too, so whatever it was an interesting thing. We'll get Henderson had a great game in that game. Which was interesting also. The other [00:32:00] thing that really astounds me is how much bird rebounded in that series. Yeah, he really had a great series on the boards. Jose: Yeah. No. And this is my memory of Larry Byrd was, any time. Let me rephrase every time he shot the ball. I thought it was going in. It didn't matter where he shot it from. It didn't matter who was on him. He was just such a phenomenally solid shooter. You forget that. Look at this, look at these rebound numbers and clear. I, we've been looking at the box score for every game. He certainly averaged double double and double figures in rebounding. You don't think about his rebounding, but this guy was just an absolute stud. He Steve: was playing the three, not the four. It wasn't expected to do that. And by the way, and we can argue this, but in my, and I'm naturally I'm biased, but I have to put Bird as one of the top five all time players. I just, what I've seen in my [00:33:00] life, I haven't thought about it deeply, but I'm just, I just. Just tremendous. Somebody, if you're listening, go on YouTube and begin to just look at some of the highlights and the things he did as a player. And by the way, and I'll just throw this out 86 when the Celtics won it he was the Celtics were 40 and one at home that year. Wow. One loss and Bird was at his peak then. Jose: Arguably the greatest NBA, one of the greatest NBA teams of all time. And we'll get to 1986. We'll get there. We'll get there. No, we won't get Steve: 86. We'll be doing 85. Jose: We'll talk about that too. Steve: Yeah. The Lakers didn't, they didn't make it that year. But go ahead. I'm Jose: sorry. It's shifting focus in night 119 108 Lakers respond. Let's take a look at their box score. Kareem came back better shooting 30 points 10 rebounds. That's [00:34:00] a good game for the captain. 21 and 10 for a magic, just solid 20. This is what you expect. What was the Steve: date of that game? Just out of curiosity. Date? Yeah, there's a reason. June 10th. What's interesting is there's only two days, he only had one day off. Yeah, so I'm just trying to see if maybe Kareem had more rest that made him better. But yeah, he, 42 minutes. Yeah. Jose: Yeah, no, that's incredible numbers. A great response. And I think you're right, Steve, to say, listen, this is what you expect, right? The Lakers are back in L. A. You expect them to win this game, right? But this is a game. This is a team rather that forgot how much time was on the clock, lost two games in overtime that they should have won. So I don't know that there was a whole lot of confidence, but it was must have been undeniably positive for. I know I as a kid, I can't help but imagine I was excited after there's Steve: two things that stand out in my [00:35:00] mind. The Lakers made a lot of mistakes in this series and you'll never see a Pat Riley team do that again. And then the other thing is, Rambus had one of the best games of the series in that game. Eight points, eight boards. Whew, it was smokin that night. Jose: My goodness. All right, the anti Rambus. Steve: No, it's just, you need five guys. You got, if the Lakers tried to play with four to wrestle what I said, get another guy on the court. So they push Rambus out there. Jose: They needed a fifth. Steve: And that's a, those are good, solid Jose: numbers for, oh yeah they're good. They're really good. And the thing is honestly, and I remember this for a while, the Lakers had a real struggle in the power forward position for a long time. I remember there was Rambis. It was Jim Jones. There were a whole lot of kind of, let's call them. What are they called? Peripheral players, right? They didn't have a star. They didn't have a player that really could play the power forward position. What was good about Kurt Rambis is he didn't need the ball, right? He, his game was, I'm sure Pat Riley [00:36:00] told him, listen, defend. Work on your stamina, get the rebounds you need to get. And that's who he was. That's what he did. He wasn't meant to be anything, but what he was, he never tried to be anybody other than who he was. And LA fell in love with Kurt Rambis, man. There were a group of teenagers that came to the team, to the game. They were pretty famous out here. And they were called Rambus Youth, I remember, and they would wear the glasses and they would be a Rambus fan club. He was a pretty popular guy here in LA, so just to balance that out. Deserved. Let's go to game seven. Yeah, it's a good one. Back in Boston, and the Lakers gotta know, listen man, we, and Steve, you pointed out, I made a ton of mistakes, let's go to Boston, let's win this, right? Up until this point, and Steve, I imagine you'll know, and I'm guessing, but I think I'm right, the Boston Celtics and Los Angeles Lakers had met before the finals, and Boston had won every single time. The [00:37:00] Lakers had never beaten them, much less beaten them in Boston, had never happened. Great opportunity for Los Angeles to make a claim. Did they? They got close. Take a look. Excuse me. 111 102. Boston wins game seven wins the 1984 NBA finals. Let's take a look at Steve: a couple notes. What do you remember? 91 degrees. It was the heat in Boston. It was a little cooler than the other day, but again, very hot. The other thing that, that 14 and cut it to three with a minute left. Jose: Wow. Steve: They made it a game, but Boston managed to hold on. Now, when you look at all that, the Lakers probably could have won six games in that series. Yeah. Steve: If, with a break or two here or there, the Celtics, the most they could have won in that series was four. And which is very interesting and [00:38:00] again, like when you I was younger, but You're watching something like that and your team is being outmanned You know that the other team is better. Jose: Yeah, Steve: and it just you know, it's amazing. I would compare that to I guess Boston in 87 when they beat Detroit, when Byrd stole the inbounds pass from Isaiah through and Boston won that series in seven where they had no right winning that similar because in my mind Boston had no right winning this series. And they, obviously they were able to with the home court and also interesting Boston won 62 games, LA only won 54. Though Boston won more games, LA was the better team. Jose: Wow. And they lost because, right? And I want to key in on this. And it's shocking to me because this is the team that had won finals before. They'd played together. They were, you can't blame, the rookie jitters. Magic [00:39:00] won as a rookie. This is a team that had been in the mountain before. You're not supposed to make these kind of mistakes. So you got to wonder what caused it, right? Was it the Celtics physicality? Was it the bright lights of Boston, right? Which is weird because you say bright lights of LA usually, but was it playing against a team like Boston with such a franchise history? What was it that caused the Lakers to just crumble? Because to your point, right? The heat, right? That's another one. This is not indicative of who the Lakers were in the 1980s. But this is what Boston did to them. Look at these numbers, man. Magic Johnson, five of 14, really poor shooting, still had 16 points and 15 assists. Good numbers. But if you look at it, not the kind of impact you would want in a game seven. Kareem showed up, certainly. A shot. Okay. Cooper, listen, Michael Cooper, great player, Hall of Fame player. But when Michael Cooper is, scoring 16 points, especially when he's guarding Larry Bird, that's a bit of a problem. I'd rather see Michael Cooper have a little less [00:40:00] points and focus more on the defensive side. James Worthy showed up with solid the whole series. Kurt Rambis was the fifth player on the court and that was it. There was nobody else here. Let's take a look at what Boston did in game seven. Who showed up? It looks like everybody did Cedric Maxwell with a big game. We'll get birds minutes 30. No, wait, where's larry bird? Yeah, 38 minutes, Steve: which is interesting by the way He was the mvp of that series and I just want to go back on something When I said top five, I said if you picked a team of five guys a forward two forwards and you know In the center and two guards he would be I in my mind he would be on that team I wanted to qualify that because, when you think about five, you think right away, Wilt, Russell, and Jabbar, Jose: And you Steve: go Jose: from there. Yeah. Another way of saying that Larry Bird was the best small forward to ever play the game. Steve: Yeah. And later in his career, he became a [00:41:00] four. He became a power forward because, he was slowing up and all, but that's it. Jose: Once again, double digits in rebounds, 12. To win the game 20 and 12 just, you relieve, relive these things you're shocked. I'm shocked, right? By, by the fact that the Lakers, yeah, one away credit to the Celtics, you still got to win the games. Always credit to the winners. But this was a series that, I think that, and you said it, and so I'll just repeat what you said, right? The better team maybe didn't win this series. Steve: Oh, and I think there was a great learning experience for the Lakers. A Riley as a coach, just probably made him as a coach or in the future, because he became the tough guy and, he didn't take anything from anybody and he didn't want his team to. And also it made the play the team a lot. Tougher from this. In fact, in the next year, they'll rebound in a big way. So [00:42:00] this was a springboard making Riley who he is today or was, and so on. And also the rest of that team, the Lakers. Jose: No, undeniable. And, and that's what it takes, right? To get to the top, you got to go through some things. Very few teams, just become good overnight. It happens sometimes but generally speaking, especially the teams that land there and have a dynasty that have a long run, they get beat up and they take that and they're better for it. Steve: It's hard being rooting for Boston, but try to be fair. It's difficult to do this or say this, but I always looked at Pat Riley as probably the best modern day coach. Then when I say modern day, I say from the eighties to today best and also the best general manager, modern day. And you always wonder in looking at these things, how much these things did for him to make him the person he is, [00:43:00] now, yeah, no, Jose: and it's undeniable, right. That not only Pat Riley, but Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Magic Johnson, Fiery Sky, James Worthy, they all took this! They hurt during the off season and they came back ready to to take on the challenge. That's it, man. That is the 1984 recap game by two people that were there and watched it. One guy with a little more vivid memory than mine. But super, super exciting. I learned a lot about a game that I know I watched, but I just didn't know a lot about, but let's see. Now there's a great buildup, right? We said, Pat Riley learned from this. We said magic learned from this, the whole team next week, we're going to discuss the 1985 NBA finals. Which just happens to be a rematch. What a great time to be an NBA fan, especially from Boston, Steve: Los Angeles. I don't [00:44:00] know if I'll be there for that one, we can talk about it. Let's go Jose: join us next week when we talk 1985 NBA finals, silly hats. Next week on 13 rules, random MBA thoughts, overtime podcast. We are excited. Thank you for joining. Thank you for listening. Please join us next week when we talk about 1985. We'll talk then. Thanks Steve. Thanks. Take care.